The Weekly Review

Make It A Habit

Productivity in Academia - An Interview with Dezene Huber

I never intended for interviews to be a regular feature here at The Weekly Review. But after my discussion with Dan Benjamin, I realized how informing it can be conducting an interview—and enjoyable. It seems the easiest way to really gain insight into a person and the subjects they specialize in.

So here is the second ever interview in this space, and a third is in the works as we speak. There has been some discussion lately on the merits of interviews, and how a lot of bloggers use them as a tool to drive traffic.

And while increasing traffic is always in the back of a blogger’s mind, I initiate an interview for a different reason. Mostly to satisfy a curiosity. The interviewee is an expert on some subject, or has had an experience in some area that I want to know more about. He/she doesn’t have to be famous at all—they simply have some knowledge/experience in a certain area.

So without further explanation, I’d you like to introduce you, dear reader, to Dezene Huber. I’ve known Dezene for several years now as we attend the same church. More accurately, I’ve known of him—we met, but had never really interacted at all. Until Twitter.

Dezene joined Twitter early this year, and for the past six months, I’ve gotten to know him via this digital tool. He’s crazy funny and very intelligent. And I quickly discovered we share some interests, mostly around productivity and tools one can employ in that regard.

He also works at our local university. I was curious about the presence of GTD-mania in an academic setting—do professors and students know of this whole sub-culture? Do they make use of it in some form or another?

So I went straight to the source. Here’s what I found.

The Interview

Chris: So to start, I was curious about your email signature:

Canada Research Chair in Forest Entomology and Chemical Ecology & Assistant Professor

It appears you do research and some teaching. But can you give me some more details about your position at the University? And what exactly is it that you do?

Dezene: I am a professor in the Ecosystem Science and Management Program at the University of Northern British Columbia and I teach mainly into the biology and the biochemistry and molecular biology degrees. “Assistant Professor” is my specific academic rank. During the course of their careers, professors typically transition from Assistant to Associate (that transition usually coincides with being granted tenure) to Full Professor.

I am also a Canada Research Chair. The Canada Research Chairs program is a federally funded program that provides for bringing new professors into the academic stream and also retaining current professors. Is specifically allows Chairs to apply more focus to research at their institution. My research involves interactions between forest insects (forest entomology) and the plants that they eat as well as communication and information gathering by insects via chemical messages (chemical ecology).

My research program at UNBC involves – among other things – studies into the evolution and heritability of tree defenses against mountain pine beetle, detoxification of resin compounds by another bark beetle, cold tolerance for winter survival in mountain pine beetle, naturally derived repellents for western pine beetle, and genomic studies of a couple of bark beetles. Several excellent graduate and undergraduate students work out of my lab, and they are the real boots on the ground in terms of research activities.

I also teach a number of undergraduate and graduate courses during the regular semesters. And, like any faculty member, I work on several committees and pursue research funding opportunities as they arise.

Chris: Cool. It sounds like you would be very busy with varying tasks from day to day. What is your overall opinion on the whole GTD sub-culture?

Dezene: Productive people have been implementing ideas like these for years. It just took someone to codify them in the popular literature to turn “being productive” into GTD.

So, if longevity is any indicator, the basic aspects are very sound - very tried-and-true. Define your inputs. Write things down. Process things as you get them. Prioritize. Review. Etc. All of that makes great sense. And chances are, our great-grandparents were using these techniques without having a nifty acronym to apply to them.

What really amazes me, though, is the cottage industry of gadgets, software, and even stationary that has grown up around the concept. I have tried many of the software packages and for the most part I found that the effort that I had to invest to use them reduced my actual productivity. I was working at using them more than they were working to serve me. I’ve looked at many of the paper-based solutions, and they just seem like a pain to implement compared to a good old-fashioned list and whatever note-taking method fits your learning style. Admittedly many of those products must work for others’ particular systems, because people buy them. They just don’t seem
relevant to my system. Which brings up another point.

It’s very tempting, in the current GTD atmosphere, to try out every new thing that zips into your RSS feed in the morning. And, of course, there is an element of geeky fun to that, which probably serves to propagate the industry to some extent. Every now and again one of those ideas or products will actually fit into your routine. If so, use it. But, if you can judge within five minutes that Acme GTD System is just not your thing, ditch it. Don’t try to make it work. It’s not likely to be useful for you anytime soon.

And, since Grandpa successfully used a pen and paper for much of his “GTD” system, that is still the most important part of any system today.

Chris: Ha. Well said.

In the same vein then, do you find that GTD has propagated to the academic environment—do you find other professors or students using GTD? And if yes, do they struggle with the same propensity to ‘fidget with their ’system’ rather than actually get things done?

Dezene: I don’t think that I’ve ever heard that acronym uttered in the halls of the academy. I do know that other profs - and students - each have their own way of doing things. Some methods are obviously more successful than others. And some will settle in on something similar to GTD, because it is an obvious solution to proper time management.

My first GTD-esque experience in the Ivory Tower was during my Ph.D. My senior supervisor - who is a very successful scientist - told me about his grid, which consisted of the standard two-by-two table of urgent/non-urgent by important/non-important. He prioritized by:

1. Urgent/important
2. Non-urgent/important
3/4. Urgent/non-important (so why is it urgent??) and
Non-urgent/non-important (so why is it on my desk?)

He also kept a meticulous work area and had a careful filing system. I try to emulate both of those, although my filing system is my computer and backup hard drive, rather than cabinets.

As for the grid, I believe that that could be taken as being the basis for the GTD system of today.

So, a shorter answer to that longer ramble is: “yes, some people do use it, but I doubt too many people call it by its current acronym.”

Chris: It’s cool that you had a someone to model, a mentor so to speak, in the area of organization\productivity. Can you describe your own system in a bit more detail?

Dezene: Tools (in no particular order of importance):
  • An actual inbox on my desk as an inbox. Black. Plastic. Boring. But it works. (with email and people appearing at my office door being the other main inputs)
  • Sarasa Zebra pens, sometimes Pilot G2
  • Mirado (Papermate) pencils, mainly
  • Mead spiral or Rhodia small pad as my to-do list next to my computer
  • Rhodia larger pad as my on-the-go note pad in my MEC sling pack
  • Moleskine reporter as my journal (also in sling pack)
  • Nikon Coolpix L10 is the cheapo digicam in my sling pack (Sonly DSC-H2 for better, planned shots, but too big to lug around). Good for recording stuff, or if I just feel creative
  • Honkin’ hugest possible iMac at work, MacBook at home, small iBook G4 for traveling
  • Mail.app for work email
  • Gmail for personal email
  • iGoogle as start page
  • gCal as work and home calendar, because my wife and I can easily share access and put work and home events in different categories. She can see what I’m up to at work and can know when I’ll be home or if she and the little guy can come up for lunch, etc.
  • gReader for RSS (Yes, I’m fixated on Google. It’s just easy and works)
  • iWeb for my personal webpage
  • iWork, in general. Though I do fire up the MS Office on occasion as well (particularly Excel). Gdocs is getting better. I imagine that I’ll eventually shift more that way
  • My favorite all-time app, Papers, by Mekentosj. Freakishly fantastic. Keeps all of my zillions of PDFs in an organized, searchable, citable state.
  • Favorite scientific databases/search engines, Google Scholar and Web of Science

Questions that I pose to incoming stuff:

  1. Is it urgent?
  2. Is it important?
  3. Can it be done easily and quickly?

If yes to 1, is it urgent because you forgot about it until the last minute? If so, I’ll need copious help from you to do it.

If yes to any, then it gets priority. The more yeses, the higher the priority.

If no to all three, it’ll go on my to-do list, and may languish there for awhile. Sorry. That’s the way that it goes.

Office ambiance, to keep me sane:

  • No windows in my office. I put up lots of my photos of our garden or our trips to various scenic locales to attempt to substitute for real sky and trees.
  • iTunes classical CDs or Classical Minnesota Public Radio (I don’t know why I’m fixated on that station, probably because their weather reports remind me of ours here in Prince George)
  • A kettle for boiling water, a travel mug (DNA-themed, of course), and Rooibos, peppermint, or chamomile tea, depending upon my mood at the time. No caffeine for me. I don’t want to be THAT productive.
  • If my work space isn’t tidy, it drives me nuts.

Other:

My most important work assets are the great students in my lab and collegial atmosphere in the department. Both help me in ways to numerous to detail.

My biggest rule — no work-related email when I’m at home (unless working from home during the day). If it’s that important, phone me. You have my home and cell number. If it’s not important enough for **a phone call**, we can deal with it in the morning.

I think that that about sums it up.

Chris: We’ve talked a little about your tools and process. What does an average day in the life of Dezene look like? What’s your routine?

Dezene: Wake up. Eat breakfast with my family. Commute by bus to work, usually listening to a podcast on the way.

My podcasts vary, but they run the gambit of politics, religion, science, and literature. I’ve recently discovered iTunesU which offers lectures from interesting professors on myriad topics. Listening to those gives me teaching ideas as well as allows me to broaden my horizons to subjects that I find interesting, but which don’t specifically relate to my own research.

When I get to work, I brew a cup of herbal tea and deal with my morning email onslaught. After that, things are extemely variable. As a professor I have teaching, research, and committee responsibilities, so it depends what’s on my plate at the time. The trick is balancing things so that zillions of small distractions (a form to sign, an exam to remark, etc.) don’t overwhelm. You need to find time on occasion to get large blocks of work done. One tactic that I use is to (mainly) not check my email more than a few times a day. I don’t have an automatic “ping” every time something comes in, and my email window is usually behind other windows, so I can forget about it. That tactic alone reduces interruptions dramatically.

Of course, there are times when frequent email checking is required. If I am drafting a manuscript or proposal with a colleage at another institution, email tends to fly back and forth rapidly. But, generally I like to adhere to minimal email interruptions. By slowing my response time, I also find that I slow the counter-responses. I often make the analogy of a hockey team consciously slowing down the pace of the game for strategic reasons. The other team may try to speed things back up again (”hey, have you seen that email from me?”), but consistency in this tack eventually wins out.

During the day I like to take some sort of short break at least once. I often eat lunch at my desk (I know that that’s bad!), so writing in a journal can be a break, as can a short walk around campus.

At the end of the day, I take the bus home (with my iPod) and have dinner with my family. I am a firm believer in eating together as a family.

I also generally do not check my work email at home. We have a separate home email account for family and friends. The only time that I might break this rule is if there is a large project that is coming up to a hard deadline. Otherwise, nothing is so urgent that it can’t wait until the morning, so I don’t need to know about it now. And, if it is extremely urgent, my name is in the phone book and my cell number is in my email signature. Call. If it’s not urgent enough to warrant a voice call, then it can wait.

Chris: Cool. You’ve stated that pen and paper work for a productivity tool. What about your Macs—do you feel that using an Apple computer makes you more productive?

Dezene: Well, just like the choice of other parts of a system, the choice of computers is a fairly personal thing (although I do realize that sometimes that choice is foisted upon people by their organization). I have used Windows PCs and Macs at various times in my life. I have only ever owned Macs, though. And, I began using Apples back when I was in high school (which is getting to be so long ago now that it’s frightening to think about). So, while I’m familiar with both systems, I sort of grew up with Apples and feel most comfortable on them.

With so many web apps coming on stream these days, I am beginning to wonder if we’ll even worry much about one operating system or another in years to come. About ten years ago, when the first iMacs started showing up (with no floppy drive!! Gasp!!!) I would use my Bondi blue iMac at home at the PCs in my lab when I was at school. Even though I was more than able to transfer files from one system to the other with ease, without the use of floppies, none of my Windows-using friends seemed to believe that my choice was actually a viable option. In the intervening ten years, things have gotten even better than that, and I’ve seen more people convert to the Apple cult because they don’t perceive the need to worry as much about file transfer and compatibility. I’m sure that web apps are going to simply accelerate the trend of people understanding that they are free to choose the operating system that they like the best.

So, what do I personally like about Macs? I’m sure that most of these items have been covered elsewhere, so, at the risk of being boring, here’s a partial list:

  • Less crashes, more robust system
  • I prefer the GUI
  • Spaces
  • Time Machine
  • I’m not as much of a UNIX geek as I once had to be, but I still like the fact that I can tweak things in Terminal
  • Less viruses
  • iWork is less crash-prone than similar Office applications (though I do need to do a lot of exporting to .doc, .xls, .ppt, or .pdf files for sending files to colleagues)
  • I generally feel that I am working “smoother” in an OSX environment compared to when I occasionally fire up my Windows laptop

Chris: You’ve mentioned in the past via Twitter that you are or could be considered a Luddite—in jest by the tone. All kidding aside, would you ever consider a more simplistic, Amish\Mennonite lifestyle seriously? Is life in North America more complicated than it needs to be?

Dezene: Life in North America is absolutely more complicated than it needs to be. Granted, there is a great deal of technological complexity that
makes our lives better. I would not want to do away with that. What I would like to see an end of, though, is the I-gotta-have-that-now culture. And that culture is what is getting us into trouble economically and environmentally. People borrow and spend well beyond their means and to support all of the purchasing, corporations are allowed to run rampant over the environment and produce products that do the same. And while there is much lip service to cleaning things up, most people are likely very unwilling to make the lifestyle changes that will see that happen.

Mark Twain once said, “Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising.” He lived in the 19th century. Two centuries later, and we still succumb to to slick advertising. I’m not enough of a historian to know what people got riled up about in Twain’s day, but we all know the scenes in this era, which the media love to play up to push even more hype, of people camping out for days for the latest gaming console or doll or whatever. And, of course the corporations selling those things aren’t dumb. They work the hype for weeks prior to the release and then make sure that there is a shortage of the item to really get the rabid masses foaming at the mouth.

My family believes in simplicity and satisfaction with what we have. Simplicity and satisfaction mean that we are able to adhere to another family rule - that of living well within our means. By doing so, we can avoid - as much as possible, barring extremely dire circumstances - using up others resources to take care of our emergencies. And, even better, we can give from our excess to those who are really in need. Many needy folks live right around us here in North America. But just the fact that we live in this country means that we are in something like the 95% percentile in the world for wealth. Even the poorest person in Canada is much better off than the majority of people in our world. So, along with local charity, we also send a good portion beyond Canada.

Now, simplicity does not mean that we live some sort of unabomber lifestyle in a log cabin. I am typing this in GMail on a 2.4 GHz Apple, for heaven’s sake. What it means for us is that we live in a modest house, that we try to grow at least some of our own food, that we don’t buy next great thing as soon as it hits the market, that our last iBook lasted eight years and was only retired after the computer world completely passed it by, that we own one car that we rarely drive, and that we make conscious decisions about what we consume.

Satisfaction means that we don’t try to make material possessions the source of our joy. Rather, the things that we already have and that mainly cannot be priced - God, family, friends, nature, and experiences - represent the true foundation of our lives. Beyond that, we live in thankfulness for food, shelter, and clothing and our good fortune to live in a free country of opportunity. If every gizmo and gadget that we own would suddenly be taken away, our lives would be a bit more challenging and a bit quieter - but, would that be such a bad thing?

Could I be Mennonite? That is a funny question on a number of levels. First, because I do have Mennonite heritage. My second middle name is a Mennonite surname derived from my mother’s side of the family. I suppose that that may be part of the influence on my personal ethic. Second, because I’ve often half-jokingly said that I’d be happy just moving out into such a situation, to which my wife always replies, “you just want to do that because you want to wear a uniform.” While I am not in agreement with some of the more extreme expressions of Anabaptism - that is, the attempt by some branches of the movement to completely separate themselves from the rest of the world - I do agree with many of the basic tenets of the mainstream Anabaptist movement. I’ve covered the ideas of simplicity and satisfaction, above. Beyond that I believe in community, sustainable living, and shalom, or peace (sometimes termed non-resistance). Like many others’, however, I believe that this expression of Christianity can be lived out in the modern world, and my family and I try to be intentional about pursuing that ethic.

Chris: Wow. Interesting comments. I agree on our lifestyle and how rich we Canadians are—and I think it’s important to recognize that some of the choices we make with our wealth harms those who are not in that 95th percentile.

Your response also leads nicely into my next question. As a person of faith and a person of science, how do you balance the two?

Dezene: Short answer: I do not see a need to balance the two, because they are
not in conflict.

Long answer: Science represents a way of knowing. Hypothesis, experiment, observe, revise hypothesis, continue. It seems to be a particularly good way of figuring things out, because with it we have done things like cure (and prevent) diseases and improve supplies of food and safe drinking water. And because of it we no longer live in fear of unknown “demons” that haunt the corners of a world that we do not understand (referencing a book titled, “Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark” by Carl Sagan).

On the other hand, some pretty horrible things have stemmed from science as well. The classic example is nuclear weapons. But, I’d be hard-pressed to say that Einstein should have just kept his mouth shut about relativity. His theories have been put to great, peaceful uses. And further developments in physics, thanks to his contributions, may someday give us workable quantum computers (an Apple G12?) or clean fusion energy. However, people have taken what he learned and have put it to an evil purpose. He simply discovered something about the world that was as true as could be understood at the time (which is as true as anything in science can be) and told us about it. It is up to those who then apply those results to think about the application.

I do not believe that ethical dilemmas occur at the discovery stage, but at the application stage. Scientists have a responsibility to openly discuss the ethical implications of applications that may arise from their discoveries. And they also must be careful of the applications that they pursue in the name of pursuing new truth. But, the sheer pursuit of truth in the natural realm (or what seems to be truth at the time) is a noble activity, and people of faith should desire to be a part of it.

Chris: Fair enough. Do you feel that the majority of your academic colleagues agree with that sentiment? Or, to put it more plainly, do you experience persecution from your peers at the university because you are a Christian?

Dezene: Of course I can’t speak for my colleagues, but if I had to guess, I would say that yes, many would mainly agree with something along those lines. And, no, I do not experience persecution, nor do I expect to. Our department - our university in general - intentionally maintains a very open, free, and respectful working environment.

The motto of UNBC is drawn from the Carrier language. It is ‘En cha huná which roughly translated means “he/she also lives.” The saying is attributed to the Carrier elders who use it to remind others that each person has a view point and perspective that is worth listening to. I am glad to say that that motto really does exemplify the atmosphere of respect found within this university. For more on the motto, and UNBC in general, see here.


As always, interviewing someone was a lot of fun. Thanks to Dezene—his answers were insightful and show what an intelligent guy he is.

It’s great to see how people in other professions get things done (lower case).

Probing the Hive Mind - An Interview With Dan Benjamin

A couple of months back, I was giving Dan Benjamin a hard time on Twitter, claiming that someone replaced his avatar with a caricature of Cabel Sasser (of Panic fame). Dan replied, with a link to the source his avatar, which was supplied by the gang responsible for Happy Webbies.

Although I was merely giving Dan a hard time — you have to admit that his happy webby looks a lot like Cabel’s Twitter avatar — this made me stop and think for a second. “Dan Benjamin has a happy webby!?” Seeing as I follow Dan on Twitter, I have obviously heard of him before. But I realized I did not hold him in the same regard as other notables in the web design world, such as Jason Santa Maria, Veerle Pieters or Jon Hicks. Why?

Here is a guy who built the content management systems for A List Apart and Cork’d. He’s the CTO of Rails Machine and respected enough in the Rails community that he’s speaking at RailsConf for the second year in a row.

After reviewing all I know of Dan, I realized this simple fact – Dan’s work is mostly unseen, living in the back-end of any website he works on. All those other folks are unbelievably good at making pretty things that the user can see. Dan’s work might also be pretty, but in a different way. This realization got me to wondering if there are others like me — casual web design fans for whom this is mostly a hobby — who unconsciously place more importance on the visual over the structure of this ‘web’ we love so much.

So I decided to rectify this unbalance by learning more about Dan Benjamin and his work. And where better to go than straight to the source? Here’s what I found.

The Interview

Chris: Let’s start with your own blog, Hivelogic. You have mentioned in your 2007 redesign that it runs on your own Rails app – impressive back-end work. How much of the front end work was completed by yourself?

Dan: Save for a few brief experiments, Hivelogic has always been published with software I’ve written. Writing your own software is a great way to learn new frameworks and languages. It also teaches you the importance of a good user interface and workflow, and it helps you predict what clients might want out of a system they’ll be using every single day.

As for the front-end design, traditionally, and at present, I’ve done the designs myself. There have been three exceptions to this, where designer friends of mine created a design for me. They were Jason Santa Maria, Dan Cederholm, and Meagan Fisher. And as much as I realize that these designers did amazing work for me, far superior to anything I can conjure up, the Hivelogic aesthetic just never feels “right” to me unless it’s running on a design I’ve done myself, despite my preference for simplicity, and content-focused starkness.

You can see a retrospective of past and present Hivelogic designs in a Flickr set dedicated to the subject.

Chris: Cool. I think that people who follow the world of web design, but are not necessarily employed in that field, are very familiar with designers who take the popular CMS’s available and create a beautiful design of their own making. That you’ve done the opposite and built your own CMS is pretty impressive.

And you list some pretty impressive names who’ve done a design for you. This is part of why I was interested in interviewing you. I wanted to hear your thoughts on this particular topic – designers vs. coders. It seems like the designers always get the majority of the attention. In a recent article titled “Findability, Orphan of the Web Design Industry” on A List Apart, Aarron Walter illustrated the differences between designers and coders(Development) in his analogy of the web design family:

Although Development was a little nerdy and shy, everyone admired his brilliance—from which he created an artificially intelligent search algorithm in just two lines of code. Super-hip Design was the cutest of them all. He seemed to win top accolades all by himself whether his siblings joined him on a project or not.

Is this illustration frustrating at all for someone like yourself? And would you agree with the underlying sentiment?

Dan: I think that accurately represents the general point of view, even if it’s false. And it’s one of the things I’ll be addressing in some upcoming posts, as well as my talk at Railsconf - how can Developers stand out, even if it’s among their own kind in their own world.

So much of what developers do is behind the scenes and invisible. And worse, it’s expected that what they do will “just work.” Good design is held in high regard by users, and great design is usually rewarded. But good code, efficient, thoughtful, effective code just flies under the radar. Things like Github can help bring attention to developers and their work, which is just one small part part of the site’s usefulness, but it’s harder for great developers to reach beyond their own community.

Good usability, though, that’s something else entirely, and that’s why I love thinking about and working on usability. Usability is the crossroads where design and development meet, and even today, with people preaching about usability everywhere you go, it’s too often overlooked and undervalued. Believe me, people notice when the usability is wrong. Sites can totally fail because of bad usability.

Chris: Good point. And I definitely agree. Usability should be the main, underlying goal of any website. And even further, developers of applications of any type, web or desktop, or even operating systems, need to keep that goal always in focus.

But when it comes to the web, most people seem to choose one side or the other, development or design. I’ve seen several people state that there are very few in the industry who would be considered great at both. Shaun Inman is a name that seems to get that label. Where would you consider yourself in that scale?

Dan: I’m one of the people who have said that there are few if any people who are great at both design and code. I think it comes down not to skill or ability, but rather to expertise. It’s possible to deeply understand code, databases, Photoshop, CSS, and even be able to write very well, but it’s the skill you practice on a daily basis, what you spend the bulk of your time doing, that you build up expertise in.

So while there might be people who have the potential to be good (or even great) at both design and development, it’s rare that you find somebody who has enough time to be simultaneously great at both in parallel. I’ve seen people shift specialities, getting great at something additional as they focus on it more, building or refreshing their expertise in the area, but generally, my experience has taught me that the people who are greatest at something tend to specialize in it. Again, that doesn’t mean they might not also be great at something else, but people who specialize are often the ones at the top of their field.

I certainly wouldn’t mind if, say, the neurosurgeon operating on my brain also enjoyed practicing law, but I’d want him to have been focusing on the neurosurgery thing more recently, if you follow me there. Maybe that’s not a fair comparison, but you get my meaning.

So, where am I on that scale? I think I have a good eye for design, and good design sensibilities. But I don’t live in the world of design. I know what I like, and what works, and I can implement some of that, but I’m not on the same level of people like Jeffrey Zeldman, Dan Cederholm, Shaun Inman, or the less famous but highly talented designers out there, doing design work every single day.

You tend to be the best at what you do every day.

Chris: Fair enough, and a humble response. And I think most people would say that you are probably one of the best at what you do. This makes a good segue to the next question.

With the increased popularity of the internet over the last 10-15 years, as it has become another facet of mainstream media, there is now a new channel for people to achieve fame (intentionally or unintentionally). Let’s call them ‘Web Superstars’ just for fun. Looking at the web design industry, you can see this playing out — there are those who are at the top — some of the names you’ve listed above. And there are others who look up to those people and who essentially look at them as role models.

Dan: Without a doubt, especially in the design community. I’ve worked with many incredibly talented yet relatively unknown designers who are quite literally star-struck by the more famous designers, and I can understand that. Those “famous” designers have put in a lot of blood, sweat, and tears to get where there are, and I think hard work like that deserves respect. Putting the time in and persevering.

Chris: Have you ever thought of yourself in this light? Are you a Web Superstar?

Dan: Am I a Web Superstar? I’ve been blogging since late 1999 and I’ve worked with some incredibly talented people on some great projects, so I can understand how people might confuse me with a superstar, but I would only call myself very lucky.

Chris: Going back to your work now. Your About page on Hivelogic lists some of the work you’ve done - publishing tools for Cork’d, A List Apart and others. And, as mentioned at the beginning, you’ve built your own CMS for Hivelogic itself.

For people looking in from the outside, the work involved might seem to be very similar. How much difference is there between the work you do for different clients? Do you basically have a foundational framework that simply gets tweaked for each one or do you start from the ground up each time?

Dan: Most publishing systems tend to have a lot of things in common, such as the management of date-based content like articles and posts vs. assets, static pages, images, and the like. You’ll usually want user accounts, role-based permissions, WYSIWYG editors, archive pages, comment systems with anti-spam features, etc. So in that way — basic feature sets a user would just expect to find in a system worth its salt — there are many things in common.

The difference is in the way that those things come together regarding how people visiting the site will interact with it, as well as the workflow and administrative dashboard that staff members will use to manage content. The way a university staff or engineering firm manages content and how their site actually works for visitors is significantly different than the way a site like Hivelogic works, and that’s different still from something like A List Apart. Sure, each one needs to manage and display some content, but how people want to use those systems is incredibly different. I tend to spend a lot of time focusing on usability, and while there might be shared components in the systems I’ve built, everything is being geared toward specific audience or client needs, so in that sense, it’s not uncommon to build a big piece from the ground-up.

I think good developers are always challenging themselves to find better ways to do things. I feel like I’d be missing a chance to engage more fully in that exercise if I wasn’t always trying to think of new or better ways of building software. And at the same time, Ruby on Rails, my development platform of choice, is evolving as well. New plugins come out every day. So it’s always interesting to see how you can see what’s new and leverage that to make products that are even more direct, more simple, and more elegant.

Chris: Interesting. It seem obvious that you play much more than just the developer role in your work. I would assume that a lot of what you do for a client would involve ‘information architect’ duties, as well as a few others.

Speaking of Ruby on Rails, I’m interested to hear your thoughts on some of the criticism that the framework has received. For people not involved in this aspect of web development, it seems like RoR has a lot of detractors, especially with issues like what Twitter has seen recently. Not that they have had serious reliability issues, but I think your average Twitter user would describe the application as flaky at times.

Let’s say you were sitting on the bus and overheard two young computer science students debating the merits of RoR vs some other framework - how would you respond?

Dan: I probably wouldn’t get involved. These days, I don’t believe there’s a right or wrong answer when it comes to selecting the framework to use to build an application. No one framework is better than another across the board, and I don’t think an application is destined to succeed or fail based the framework you’re using. They all have advantages and disadvantages. My preference is Rails because I like the elegant simplicity of Ruby and the way that David and the Core Team have leveraged it for the Rails framework. But I know people who prefer PHP, and others who like Python, and they like the frameworks based on that language.

It’s more a matter of personal preference. Find something you like and run with it.

Chris: Let’s move on to a really important topic now - beverages. I’ve got a few questions about Cork’d.

The ‘About Cork’d’ page lists you and Dan Cederholm listed as the founders. How involved are you both still involved with the day to day operations of this site?

Dan: Neither of us are involved with Cork’d anymore. We helped transition the site when it was acquired, and Dan C. did some initial design work, but that was it. We’re as hopeful and exited as everybody else to see what Gary has up his sleeve for the website.

Chris: I read this following quote from Dan C. in an interview on ThinkVitamin in August of 2006:

Because it’s so targeted I think that’s why it’s attractive to all these wine people, so there’s that, we could create a ‘Cork’d Deluxe’, where signing up, having a fee that offers extra features beyond what the free Cork’d does, that’s a possibility. Secretly, or not so secretly I guess, we’ve been thinking about other sites, I won’t go into detail right now, but there are other beverages beside wine, so we’ll see what happens.

Perhaps I’ve missed some news since then, but I think there are similar markets that could use this type of community. I’m sure ale\mead\beer fans would flock to a service like this. And I would think the entire nerd\geek community would do the same with a site centering around coffee.

Are there any plans for something new in this regard?

Dan: Building Cork’d with Dan C. was a great experience, and I’m looking forward to working on something else with him one day, but right now, both of us are too busy to take on anything new right now. But the space is wide open, for sure.

Chris: That reminds me of something I noticed on the Cork’d About page. In the section where you both are mentioned, there is this reference to Tundro:

Cork’d is a product of Tundro, a development agency building web applications for people like you.

But the link to Tundro.com does not work. Is this simply a project that never came to fruition? Or is there more to the story?

Dan: Tundro was the company we formed to build Cork’d. At the time we imagined we might one day create more applications. This is what the site used to look like:

The Tundro company, name, logo, and website weren’t part of the Cork’d deal, and I’ve retained ownership of them for possible use down the road.

Dan Cederholm used the awesome beer icon he’d developed for a potential new site for one of his projects, Foamee (http://foamee.com).

Chris: Thanks for clearing that up. As for foamee.com, that sort of what I was hinting at a couple of questions back. I would love to see Dan’s ioubeer and ioucoffee idea turn into something like Cork’d. He’s already got a great start with Twitter. And the logo’s are sweet. Seems like his always are – I loved his hivelogic icon.

Dan: He’s got a crazy talent for coming up with amazing logos and icons. It’s kind of wild to watch him work.

Chris: Now we can’t have a geek interview without asking this – do you drink coffee? If yes, how do you take it?

Dan: I do enjoy a cup of coffee from time to time, but I’m not a habitual coffee drinker. Caffeine tends to make me more jumpy than alert, so I watch the intake. I drink far more green tea (loose leaf, water at 180°, etc.) than coffee. My favorite cup of coffee comes from Stumptown in Portland, Oregon.

Chris: Let’s talk about another big project of yours - The Talk Show. So you get to work with John Gruber. You’ve made a few comments on the show about his ‘quirks’. And some tweets as well. If you had to sum it up, how would you describe working with John?

Dan: John is a great writer, and has a great eye for detail. He’s also very devoted to his work and his family. And he is very, very smart. And as is often the case with bright people, he’s somewhat eccentric. These eccentricities often come out in the form idiosyncrasies, like his obsessive attention to detail, his fixation on fonts and anti-aliasing, the hostility and rage against humanity, that kind of thing. It’s impossible to schedule anything, such as the recording of a Talk Show episode with him, while he’s focusing on writing, which is pretty much all of the time. Personally, I think the coffee just makes it worse.

Chris: So what ever prompted you both to work together and come up with the Talk Show?

Dan: We had so much fun when John was a guest on the Hivelogic podcast, and the response was so overwhelming, that we decided to make a regular thing out of it.

Chris: You definitely seem knowledgeable about podcasting. Your post on podcasting equipment was especially helpful for people starting out in this arena.

Do you think that this is an area that can now be considered an essential part of a business, especially people involved in web-centric fields? Or is it more of a fad that will never be looked at seriously, by media or big businesses?

Dan: I think that just as blogs are now a requirement for most businesses with a public face, podcasts and video blogs will one day be just as important. It might take a few years, but it’ll get there.

Well just take a look at What Gary Vaynerchuk of Wine Library TV has done with his family business using his video blog and social networking.

We’re also starting to see more and more companies becoming aware of the importance of social networking. Southwest Airlines, for example, is on Twitter. So are a handful of other companies. And they respond to you!

Chris: All those mediums appear to be initiating change in the way people think and interact with those offering more traditional services. It will be interesting to see how corporate America continues to react to these changes.

One last question about the Talk Show. Dan Benjamin and John Gruber. Which one of you is the sidekick?

John Gruber is my nemesis, so I’ve never really thought of us in terms of sidekick and superhero.

Chris: Nice. Maybe superhero and villain. We can call you Profanity-Filter Man, saving young Talk Show listeners from the fiery f-bombs of Gruber. Well…never mind.

I’ve got to give you both some thanks here though. On behalf of myself, and others like me, fans of Lost who would rather wait to watch each season in it’s entirety on DVD – thank you for the great job you guys did with giving away zero spoilers. I really enjoyed your discussion about the show in episode 16. But I was cringing through all 68 minutes thinking I was going to hear something about season 4 that would give a really important plot line away. Nice work keeping us in the dark while still have an engaging conversation.

Now that we’ve covered a lot of your professional doings, I’d like to ask you about your spirituality. You mention on the Hivelogic About page that you are a practicing buddhist. How did you come to embrace this particular religion?

Dan: I’ve been practicing a style of Buddhist meditation, called Vipassana or Mindfulness meditation, for a number of years. This style is practiced by Theravada Buddhists as well as many non-Buddhists, and is often used outside of Buddhist circles for things like stress reduction, relaxation, and even in hospitals and therapy centers to help people with chronic pain.

I had studied Buddhism before, and it seemed like a cool philosophy, but before the integration of a regular meditation practice, I hadn’t really delved too deeply into it. But after several years of daily meditation practice, I learned more and more about Buddhism, and it really made sense to me. The philosophies that it’s based on, the idea that we’re responsible for our own actions, that there’s an opportunity for a deep peace in daily life, that one’s life and activities can be understood when looked at with a very scientific eye, and that these things are all part of a bigger path was very intriguing to me.

I eventually reached a point where I was living my life as a Buddhist — not as a monastic, obviously — but it had become something that had become deeply integrated into my life, and that I found brought me, and subsequently people around me, a lot of joy. I was a much happier, much more calm, much more centered person.

Here are a few links:

Chris: Does this aspect of your life ever cause you to reflect negatively on your profession? What I mean is, does the part of Dan Benjamin that seeks spiritual nourishment conflict with what you do or the amount of time you may spend in front of a computer?

Dan: I think it’s my practice that allows me to spend the bulk of the day in front of a computer.

Chris: Ha. Fair enough.

Dan: I’m being serious - the practice of mindfulness and concentration is tremendously valuable in dealing with stress, and very helpful in establishing focus. I work faster and more effectively now than I ever have.

Chris: Wouldn’t that allow you to spend less time on the computer?

This is more what I’m getting at – as a Christian, I feel that relationships should be the primary focus in my life. My relationship with God, with my wife, my children and lastly neighbors, friends and family. Sometimes I feel that the time I spend on the computer distracts me from more important things.

The question — although poorly articulated — was intended to reflect that sort of idea and inquire if you ever have the same struggle.

Dan: Vipassana meditation is a kind of training for the mind. The same way athletes train and practice so they will excel on the field of play, meditation is practice for the real world, for real life. On the meditation cushion, we practice mindfulness of the present moment. I try and take that concept with me into my work day as well, trying to keep an awareness of the present moment. So in that way, although it isn’t easy, it’s possible to bring a clarity and focus into your workday.

In one of my favorite books on Meditation, Mindfulness in Plain English, the author (Bhante G) explains how you can take even the regular aspects of work and daily life and integrate your practice into them. It’s a challenge, but engaging this way can really change how you feel about your work and how you connect with it.

As far as how I feel about spending a big chunk of my day in front of a computer screen, I am OK with it. I work from home where it’s easier to get into the Creativity Zone. I get to see my wife and baby boy throughout the day, and although I do work a lot and have a number of projects ongoing, I get to structure my day in a relatively flexible way.

Thinking back, I’ve spent quite a bit of time in pretty difficult jobs, behind the stinking broiler at Burger King, pushing carts in the heat of the Florida summer and stocking shelves in a grocery store, working in a tiny, frenzied kitchen in an Italian restaurant, cleaning bathrooms in movie theaters, and working in plenty of mundane, unrewarding, punishing and abusive corporate jobs. By comparison, I’m pretty lucky.

Chris: So you appear to have a lot going on in your life. Listener’s of the Talk Show know that you have a very young son. You have your own business and site to maintian with Hivelogic and you are the CTO of Rails Machine. Throw in some podcasting and a healthy dose of Twitter and it would seem you are a very busy guy.

Dan: Well I have a clear separation of work and non-work. Keeping those two things separate are key. And I value my family above all else. This value makes really helps me decide what to do and when.

Chris: One last question. What does an average day in the life of Dan Benjamin look like?

Dan: It’s a bit different these days now that we have a baby, and as his schedule changes, so does mine. But generally speaking, it looks something like this:
Time Activity
6:15-6:30am Wake up (no alarm is used, I just wake up naturally at this time)
6:45 - 7:30 Meditation
7:30 - 8:30 Time with baby
8:30 - 9:00 Breakfast with family
9:00 - 1/1:30 Work*
1/1:30 - 2:00 Lunch
2:00 - 6-ish Work*
6-ish Pre-dinner family time until baby goes to bed
6? Jog
7? Dinner
8 - 11? Family time, reading, television (if a show we follow is on), etc.

I should note that I find most days incredibly rewarding.

* Work includes checking email, responding to work issues, readers, initial catchup with news in the morning, etc. I don’t allot specific time for those things, they just happen naturally as part of the schedule. I also take some breaks throughout the day, and because I work from home, I get to see my wife and the baby.


During the course of two months, Dan graciously answered all my questions in an articulate, professional fashion. I’m grateful for his time in providing this insight into his work and life, and I have a better appreciation for those who work in the web industry more behind the scenes.

As a user, it’s important to remember that there is a lot that goes on with an application that you never see. The web is no different. People like Dan are focused on making the web a great experience. We should all appreciate that.

Here’s to a happy webby that’s well deserved!

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